Spinner Posted January 13, 2022 #1 Posted January 13, 2022 I'm relatively new to gambling (started last spring) and primarily only played Relax Gaming's Money Train 2, as it has a 98% RTP and I liked the bonus feature. I'm a very analytical person and like to document everything I play to avoid any gamblers fallacies and make interesting notes how often certain things happen etc. Over the course of 3 months I played 25 000 bonus rounds, and while there were ups and downs as you would expect with volatile slots, in the end my RTP was 98.20% with opportunities to leave at a nice profit along the way if I was only playing for money. Mathematically a lot of the things I witnessed made sense, from the frequency of premiums to losing streaks and big wins. There also seems to not be that many crazy hits from streamers in this game, and I have some bigger hits than a lot of them. So in the end despite losing money in the long run, Relax Gaming gets the thumbs up from me and the game delivered as promised. I got bored of it though, and wanted to give actual spinning a try. Madame Destiny megaways was a slot that caught my eye, so because of covid and having all the time in the world, I decided to start grinding it for 30 days, anywhere from 2-4 sessions per day at different times from mornings to nights to cover various server times. My goal was to hit 100 000 spins and obviously try and get that max win 5000x, which compared to Money Train 2's 50 000x seemed like child's play. I was a little worried about Pragmatics reputation though, from symbols missing that makes it impossible to hit a max win, or being one of the biggest supporters of fake streamers, but I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt. Today I completed my grind. Every spin was made at 1$ bet size without double chance. To make my grind a little bit more bearable, alongside Stake I was playing on various casinos (with verified licences) fishing for bonuses. Over the course of the month, I created accounts on 17 different casinos and thus obtained 17 bonuses. I made sure it was always the 96.56% RTP version of the game. The amount of times I was able to complete my rollover: 1. Over the course of the past month, it was the only time I was able to give Madame 3500 spins without losing my entire balance. Although, my overall profit from that session wasn't all that fantastic at 200x. Stats - Spins: 100 000 Max wins: 0 1000x's: 0 Best bonus: 870x, the only time I broke 600x, and like a switch was flipped, it ate it back at a faster rate than I've ever seen in a few hours Longest bonus drought: 3600 spins - a lot of the time they would be dropping every 500 spins or so on average, but when these droughts happened, they would easily go on for 1000+ spins, and every single one of the bonuses that I got in these cases, paid anywhere from 5 to 50x Best base game hit: 540x, this was actually nice, as it came in the rare night where the slot was maintaining and didn't eat it back right away. Unfortunately it was only one of the two times when I hit 500x in this game Overall RTP: 85.40%, so through 100 000 spins, 30 days, 18 different casinos and over hundred sessions, my RTP was a little over 11% below the games theoretical RTP. Obviously, as you can see things weren't good. Even 2 max wins wouldn't get me up to the 96.56% average. Finishing below wasn't something I was unprepared for, but the biggest issue I have with this slot is how it operates on average. The lack of good sessions was absolutely staggering to me. 5000x max win is low, and yet most of the time it eats like it's multiple times that. Because of the low max win, I was expecting way more sessions where it would maintain my balance even if I wasn't making much of a profit. Instead, ~75-85% was the most common RTP. Besides the day when i got the 870x hit, there was only one other time I got up over 300x on a session. If I happened to get up 100-200x, a dry spell was 99% of the time around the corner. There's also a lot of weird things going on. Scatters aren't dropping that often most of the time, but then when you get that big 1-2 tease, 8 times out of 10 (I started tracking this after a while) it's followed by a third scatter dropping in on the next round. As if the game knows what just happened and makes you feel like it was right there. It's so systematic it can't be a coincidence. Either the game is programmed to go through cycles where scatters drop more, or something else is going on. But if every spin was independent and completely random as they say, this shouldn't be happening as much as it does. The chance for a scatter dropping the following round after a 1-2 tease, compared to the average spin, increased by 500%. Final thoughts: the slot is ass. There's no point playing long-term. Overall, in my opinion, fun gameplay, comes at a price of repeatedly getting bent over. I don't know if it's the theoretical possibilities from the megaways that make it hard to hit stuff, RTP being funneled to bonus buys, or some shitty programming, but the math to me doesn't add up. It's like you're getting the bad side of volatility 90% of the time, which again, for a 5000x max win game makes zero sense. There's barely any significant swings the other way, and thus the slot just feels like a scam. From what I've seen, this seems to be the case with a lot of Pragmatics games. Safe to say I won't be returning to their slots, and If you get lucky and hit something big, I'd suggest never touch them again.
Diedon100 Posted January 13, 2022 #2 Posted January 13, 2022 Great summary i love it, what i can add more on it about Progmatics slots, what i have experience is just one week or ten days of moth they pay, for me is 25- to 05 new month they give me good X on bonus that happens to me
ChainDeepwood Posted March 22, 2022 #3 Posted March 22, 2022 On 1/13/2022 at 6:28 PM, Spinner said: I'm relatively new to gambling (started last spring) and primarily only played Relax Gaming's Money Train 2, as it has a 98% RTP and I liked the bonus feature. I'm a very analytical person and like to document everything I play to avoid any gamblers fallacies and make interesting notes how often certain things happen etc. Over the course of 3 months I played 25 000 bonus rounds, and while there were ups and downs as you would expect with volatile slots, in the end my RTP was 98.20% with opportunities to leave at a nice profit along the way if I was only playing for money. Mathematically a lot of the things I witnessed made sense, from the frequency of premiums to losing streaks and big wins. There also seems to not be that many crazy hits from streamers in this game, and I have some bigger hits than a lot of them. So in the end despite losing money in the long run, Relax Gaming gets the thumbs up from me and the game delivered as promised. I got bored of it though, and wanted to give actual spinning a try. Madame Destiny megaways was a slot that caught my eye, so because of covid and having all the time in the world, I decided to start grinding it for 30 days, anywhere from 2-4 sessions per day at different times from mornings to nights to cover various server times. My goal was to hit 100 000 spins and obviously try and get that max win 5000x, which compared to Money Train 2's 50 000x seemed like child's play. I was a little worried about Pragmatics reputation though, from symbols missing that makes it impossible to hit a max win, or being one of the biggest supporters of fake streamers, but I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt. Today I completed my grind. Every spin was made at 1$ bet size without double chance. To make my grind a little bit more bearable, alongside Stake I was playing on various casinos (with verified licences) fishing for bonuses. Over the course of the month, I created accounts on 17 different casinos and thus obtained 17 bonuses. I made sure it was always the 96.56% RTP version of the game. The amount of times I was able to complete my rollover: 1. Over the course of the past month, it was the only time I was able to give Madame 3500 spins without losing my entire balance. Although, my overall profit from that session wasn't all that fantastic at 200x. Stats - Spins: 100 000 Max wins: 0 1000x's: 0 Best bonus: 870x, the only time I broke 600x, and like a switch was flipped, it ate it back at a faster rate than I've ever seen in a few hours Longest bonus drought: 3600 spins - a lot of the time they would be dropping every 500 spins or so on average, but when these droughts happened, they would easily go on for 1000+ spins, and every single one of the bonuses that I got in these cases, paid anywhere from 5 to 50x Best base game hit: 540x, this was actually nice, as it came in the rare night where the slot was maintaining and didn't eat it back right away. Unfortunately it was only one of the two times when I hit 500x in this game Overall RTP: 85.40%, so through 100 000 spins, 30 days, 18 different casinos and over hundred sessions, my RTP was a little over 11% below the games theoretical RTP. Obviously, as you can see things weren't good. Even 2 max wins wouldn't get me up to the 96.56% average. Finishing below wasn't something I was unprepared for, but the biggest issue I have with this slot is how it operates on average. The lack of good sessions was absolutely staggering to me. 5000x max win is low, and yet most of the time it eats like it's multiple times that. Because of the low max win, I was expecting way more sessions where it would maintain my balance even if I wasn't making much of a profit. Instead, ~75-85% was the most common RTP. Besides the day when i got the 870x hit, there was only one other time I got up over 300x on a session. If I happened to get up 100-200x, a dry spell was 99% of the time around the corner. There's also a lot of weird things going on. Scatters aren't dropping that often most of the time, but then when you get that big 1-2 tease, 8 times out of 10 (I started tracking this after a while) it's followed by a third scatter dropping in on the next round. As if the game knows what just happened and makes you feel like it was right there. It's so systematic it can't be a coincidence. Either the game is programmed to go through cycles where scatters drop more, or something else is going on. But if every spin was independent and completely random as they say, this shouldn't be happening as much as it does. The chance for a scatter dropping the following round after a 1-2 tease, compared to the average spin, increased by 500%. Final thoughts: the slot is ass. There's no point playing long-term. Overall, in my opinion, fun gameplay, comes at a price of repeatedly getting bent over. I don't know if it's the theoretical possibilities from the megaways that make it hard to hit stuff, RTP being funneled to bonus buys, or some shitty programming, but the math to me doesn't add up. It's like you're getting the bad side of volatility 90% of the time, which again, for a 5000x max win game makes zero sense. There's barely any significant swings the other way, and thus the slot just feels like a scam. From what I've seen, this seems to be the case with a lot of Pragmatics games. Safe to say I won't be returning to their slots, and If you get lucky and hit something big, I'd suggest never touch them again. Thx for your post. Did you played any other Slots in the meantime?
aztech Posted March 22, 2022 #5 Posted March 22, 2022 On 1/14/2022 at 12:28 AM, Spinner said: I'm relatively new to gambling (started last spring) and primarily only played Relax Gaming's Money Train 2, as it has a 98% RTP and I liked the bonus feature. I'm a very analytical person and like to document everything I play to avoid any gamblers fallacies and make interesting notes how often certain things happen etc. Over the course of 3 months I played 25 000 bonus rounds, and while there were ups and downs as you would expect with volatile slots, in the end my RTP was 98.20% with opportunities to leave at a nice profit along the way if I was only playing for money. Mathematically a lot of the things I witnessed made sense, from the frequency of premiums to losing streaks and big wins. There also seems to not be that many crazy hits from streamers in this game, and I have some bigger hits than a lot of them. So in the end despite losing money in the long run, Relax Gaming gets the thumbs up from me and the game delivered as promised. I got bored of it though, and wanted to give actual spinning a try. Madame Destiny megaways was a slot that caught my eye, so because of covid and having all the time in the world, I decided to start grinding it for 30 days, anywhere from 2-4 sessions per day at different times from mornings to nights to cover various server times. My goal was to hit 100 000 spins and obviously try and get that max win 5000x, which compared to Money Train 2's 50 000x seemed like child's play. I was a little worried about Pragmatics reputation though, from symbols missing that makes it impossible to hit a max win, or being one of the biggest supporters of fake streamers, but I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt. Today I completed my grind. Every spin was made at 1$ bet size without double chance. To make my grind a little bit more bearable, alongside Stake I was playing on various casinos (with verified licences) fishing for bonuses. Over the course of the month, I created accounts on 17 different casinos and thus obtained 17 bonuses. I made sure it was always the 96.56% RTP version of the game. The amount of times I was able to complete my rollover: 1. Over the course of the past month, it was the only time I was able to give Madame 3500 spins without losing my entire balance. Although, my overall profit from that session wasn't all that fantastic at 200x. Stats - Spins: 100 000 Max wins: 0 1000x's: 0 Best bonus: 870x, the only time I broke 600x, and like a switch was flipped, it ate it back at a faster rate than I've ever seen in a few hours Longest bonus drought: 3600 spins - a lot of the time they would be dropping every 500 spins or so on average, but when these droughts happened, they would easily go on for 1000+ spins, and every single one of the bonuses that I got in these cases, paid anywhere from 5 to 50x Best base game hit: 540x, this was actually nice, as it came in the rare night where the slot was maintaining and didn't eat it back right away. Unfortunately it was only one of the two times when I hit 500x in this game Overall RTP: 85.40%, so through 100 000 spins, 30 days, 18 different casinos and over hundred sessions, my RTP was a little over 11% below the games theoretical RTP. Obviously, as you can see things weren't good. Even 2 max wins wouldn't get me up to the 96.56% average. Finishing below wasn't something I was unprepared for, but the biggest issue I have with this slot is how it operates on average. The lack of good sessions was absolutely staggering to me. 5000x max win is low, and yet most of the time it eats like it's multiple times that. Because of the low max win, I was expecting way more sessions where it would maintain my balance even if I wasn't making much of a profit. Instead, ~75-85% was the most common RTP. Besides the day when i got the 870x hit, there was only one other time I got up over 300x on a session. If I happened to get up 100-200x, a dry spell was 99% of the time around the corner. There's also a lot of weird things going on. Scatters aren't dropping that often most of the time, but then when you get that big 1-2 tease, 8 times out of 10 (I started tracking this after a while) it's followed by a third scatter dropping in on the next round. As if the game knows what just happened and makes you feel like it was right there. It's so systematic it can't be a coincidence. Either the game is programmed to go through cycles where scatters drop more, or something else is going on. But if every spin was independent and completely random as they say, this shouldn't be happening as much as it does. The chance for a scatter dropping the following round after a 1-2 tease, compared to the average spin, increased by 500%. Final thoughts: the slot is ass. There's no point playing long-term. Overall, in my opinion, fun gameplay, comes at a price of repeatedly getting bent over. I don't know if it's the theoretical possibilities from the megaways that make it hard to hit stuff, RTP being funneled to bonus buys, or some shitty programming, but the math to me doesn't add up. It's like you're getting the bad side of volatility 90% of the time, which again, for a 5000x max win game makes zero sense. There's barely any significant swings the other way, and thus the slot just feels like a scam. From what I've seen, this seems to be the case with a lot of Pragmatics games. Safe to say I won't be returning to their slots, and If you get lucky and hit something big, I'd suggest never touch them again. you know, slot its a algorithm machine, we can beat only having luck,,,hahah
jungl3 Posted March 23, 2022 #6 Posted March 23, 2022 @Spinner Thanks for your detailed write up. That was a good read. How did the game play on stake vs the other casinos? It's anecdotal, given the sample size, I guess, but im curious if it performed better/worse/similarly to the other casinos? Is it your opinion that streamers are given an advantage by pragmatic? This is anecdotal, but I've seen pragmatic staff in streams on twitch and then shortly afterwards there's a sizeable win. Seems a bit fishy.
Nhika Posted March 24, 2022 #7 Posted March 24, 2022 i love to try but pragmatic play is not available in my region,
XeroF Posted March 26, 2022 #9 Posted March 26, 2022 Bought Madame destiny at least like 2000 times, probably alot more but no max win yet! its better to come this year!
jalisile Posted May 23, 2022 #10 Posted May 23, 2022 Im nonetheless trying to determine out a way to bet nicely at diamond considering that there may be number one.0102x payout that's the maximum commonplace payout for wagering. I might post is subsequently if I figure something out to get my game apk.
Teebee89 Posted May 24, 2022 #11 Posted May 24, 2022 Pragmatic has deals with casinos and streamers. In the last year since big streamers came to stake the rtp for the casual player has tanked yet every stream the big name streamers are hitting max win and 100x minimums on bonuses. Slots are absolutely a scam on this site and if you truly think these scum bags with fake non reputable third party audits can’t rig seeds or rtp you are truly an idiot and will lose everything
Thailan Posted May 25, 2022 #13 Posted May 25, 2022 in quite long time i got 3 times 50,000x on money train 2 never seen 2500x+ on pragmatic! now i am just spamming money train 2 aswell... never touch other games if i win i win big if not its ok ... no need to cut my win before start a gamble
Pokitren Posted May 25, 2022 #14 Posted May 25, 2022 On 1/13/2022 at 7:28 PM, Spinner said: So in the end despite losing money in the long run, Relax Gaming gets the thumbs up from me and the game delivered as promised. At this point I would stop playing
diegovpp Posted March 15, 2023 #17 Posted March 15, 2023 pragmatic was never good for me, so hard to hit a 1000x
amofarelo Posted March 16, 2023 #19 Posted March 16, 2023 I really can not beleive rtp because of pragmatic
Andreag89 Posted March 17, 2023 #23 Posted March 17, 2023 On 1/13/2022 at 6:28 PM, Spinner said: I'm relatively new to gambling (started last spring) and primarily only played Relax Gaming's Money Train 2, as it has a 98% RTP and I liked the bonus feature. I'm a very analytical person and like to document everything I play to avoid any gamblers fallacies and make interesting notes how often certain things happen etc. Over the course of 3 months I played 25 000 bonus rounds, and while there were ups and downs as you would expect with volatile slots, in the end my RTP was 98.20% with opportunities to leave at a nice profit along the way if I was only playing for money. Mathematically a lot of the things I witnessed made sense, from the frequency of premiums to losing streaks and big wins. There also seems to not be that many crazy hits from streamers in this game, and I have some bigger hits than a lot of them. So in the end despite losing money in the long run, Relax Gaming gets the thumbs up from me and the game delivered as promised. I got bored of it though, and wanted to give actual spinning a try. Madame Destiny megaways was a slot that caught my eye, so because of covid and having all the time in the world, I decided to start grinding it for 30 days, anywhere from 2-4 sessions per day at different times from mornings to nights to cover various server times. My goal was to hit 100 000 spins and obviously try and get that max win 5000x, which compared to Money Train 2's 50 000x seemed like child's play. I was a little worried about Pragmatics reputation though, from symbols missing that makes it impossible to hit a max win, or being one of the biggest supporters of fake streamers, but I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt. Today I completed my grind. Every spin was made at 1$ bet size without double chance. To make my grind a little bit more bearable, alongside Stake I was playing on various casinos (with verified licences) fishing for bonuses. Over the course of the month, I created accounts on 17 different casinos and thus obtained 17 bonuses. I made sure it was always the 96.56% RTP version of the game. The amount of times I was able to complete my rollover: 1. Over the course of the past month, it was the only time I was able to give Madame 3500 spins without losing my entire balance. Although, my overall profit from that session wasn't all that fantastic at 200x. Stats - Spins: 100 000 Max wins: 0 1000x's: 0 Best bonus: 870x, the only time I broke 600x, and like a switch was flipped, it ate it back at a faster rate than I've ever seen in a few hours Longest bonus drought: 3600 spins - a lot of the time they would be dropping every 500 spins or so on average, but when these droughts happened, they would easily go on for 1000+ spins, and every single one of the bonuses that I got in these cases, paid anywhere from 5 to 50x Best base game hit: 540x, this was actually nice, as it came in the rare night where the slot was maintaining and didn't eat it back right away. Unfortunately it was only one of the two times when I hit 500x in this game Overall RTP: 85.40%, so through 100 000 spins, 30 days, 18 different casinos and over hundred sessions, my RTP was a little over 11% below the games theoretical RTP. Obviously, as you can see things weren't good. Even 2 max wins wouldn't get me up to the 96.56% average. Finishing below wasn't something I was unprepared for, but the biggest issue I have with this slot is how it operates on average. The lack of good sessions was absolutely staggering to me. 5000x max win is low, and yet most of the time it eats like it's multiple times that. Because of the low max win, I was expecting way more sessions where it would maintain my balance even if I wasn't making much of a profit. Instead, ~75-85% was the most common RTP. Besides the day when i got the 870x hit, there was only one other time I got up over 300x on a session. If I happened to get up 100-200x, a dry spell was 99% of the time around the corner. There's also a lot of weird things going on. Scatters aren't dropping that often most of the time, but then when you get that big 1-2 tease, 8 times out of 10 (I started tracking this after a while) it's followed by a third scatter dropping in on the next round. As if the game knows what just happened and makes you feel like it was right there. It's so systematic it can't be a coincidence. Either the game is programmed to go through cycles where scatters drop more, or something else is going on. But if every spin was independent and completely random as they say, this shouldn't be happening as much as it does. The chance for a scatter dropping the following round after a 1-2 tease, compared to the average spin, increased by 500%. Final thoughts: the slot is ass. There's no point playing long-term. Overall, in my opinion, fun gameplay, comes at a price of repeatedly getting bent over. I don't know if it's the theoretical possibilities from the megaways that make it hard to hit stuff, RTP being funneled to bonus buys, or some shitty programming, but the math to me doesn't add up. It's like you're getting the bad side of volatility 90% of the time, which again, for a 5000x max win game makes zero sense. There's barely any significant swings the other way, and thus the slot just feels like a scam. From what I've seen, this seems to be the case with a lot of Pragmatics games. Safe to say I won't be returning to their slots, and If you get lucky and hit something big, I'd suggest never touch them again. Really interesting reading this topic, honestly I couldn’t agree more on every single aspect you listed above, particularly with the 2/3+1 scatter drop tease, this has now been going on over and over again on gates, sweet bonanza, madame, starlight and many more that share the same algorithm engine. just had this example the past week, burned out 4K on 1$ double chance on, got only 2 bonus rounds and both payed crap. Basically you get 3/4 dry spins (0x) followed by 2/3 .6/.8x spins and then it starts making that annoying joke, 2 scatters plus .5x cluster, 3 scatter appears then dies, following spin 3 scatters, no cluster, then again other spin with 2+1, over and over again for 50/60 spins without ever getting to the actual bounds round. this is just way too repetitive scheme going on, and btw, the enhanced scatter feature is just smoke placed in front of you. The slots behave exactly the same with or without it. Got the same 2+1 tease as well when the feature was turned off. Same paying strategy scheme.
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