Unfairness in provably fair casinos

[Seoulmate]

Please Note: This Topic is concerned with the general concept of "Provably Fair" and how it may be abused by rogue casino operators. It is not a critique of Stake's implementation of "Provably Fair". IF you have specific issues with Stake please create a separate topic for discussion.

With the "provably fair" system, casino operators are unable to change the outcomes in your game without running the risk of being discovered through  a verification process.However they can know in advance what those outcomes will be in your game. The casino operator has the client seed their own hashed seed and the nonce is sequential. These are the 3 elements that create the string of outcomes that determine the result in your game as you play.

So it's quite possible that a rogue casino operator can know the outcomes in your game before they happen, "so what?" you ask, "they can't change them. What can they do?"

A rogue operator could speed up your game during losing streaks to ensure maximum losses, and they can slow down the game as you approach a winning streak or target, or even disconnect you from the server briefly to disrupt your autobet settings, force a screen refresh, or even crash your browser. They can send you visual notifications that break your concentration, obscure part of the screen that gives you feedback on play and generally disrupt your rythm of play when you are in that winning zone.

So it's possible that a casino can be "provably fair" and unfair in how it operates. The examples above I have experienced from time to time on various sites. Does anyone have any experience of these? or seen other methods to disrupt a players winning streak?

[toohoola]

 They could do such, but why would they?

I'm more worried about technical related issues, especially the bugs.
To give you an example: one day, I can't recall what was it, but I remember I noticed something strange, while I was playing. I decided to download my bet archive to check the previous bets. To my surprise, I discovered that the bet archive is missing some bets! To be specific: it missed 8 bets in total! 7 of those were sequential, 1 was not to far from it. Which is kinda strange, since the bet archive should have info about all the games that you played on the site, it is made on the server, it is stored on the server, normal user has no access to it. So I asked support about this and this is the response I got: "I will forward this to our developers and admins for a check. As soon as I get a reply, I will contact you here". This was 40 weeks ago. They had quite some updates since, but I still haven't heard anything about it. I checked my other bets from that time and I noticed in some of my archives, the bets are not sequential, as if they were randomly sorted during a short period of time. In some other archives the bets are even reversed. Today, I downloaded the archives again to check, if anything has changed, but the bets are still missing and the order or the games are still not sequential.

This was just one example and I'm quite sure there are more, maybe just people don't see it because it happens very very rarely.
They also decided to obfuscate their code and hide their API, which makes the site less and less reliable for me.
Even their provably fair page has incorrect codes, which raises the question: if your publicly available documentation has errors, then what about the code which is not available for the public?

In case if someone is wondering, this is one of the errors: 

 

 

[evet]

Stake could manipulate the results, every site can. But I think Eddie won't resort to that, stake has a good reputation and obviously is earning well from us, the gamblers. They don't have the reason to rigged out the site since they are already way profitable. And even if they can, I just want to believe that Eddie won't do such thing just because he doesn't want to. He wanna gain our trust in the fair way. 

[Seoulmate]

hmmm I never mentioned stake, this topic is in the General Casino discussion section of the forum and not in the Stake section. If I was pointing the finger at stake I would have placed the topic there.

[Aiza824]

4 hours ago, toohoola said:

 They could do such, but why would they?

Trapping a Moby Dick and pulling it offshire is better than catching a ton of anchovies.

Also, about missing bets, it is a long-standing bug. It do really happens often especially those with huge hits (or the end of a Martingale with a huge wager) that have only passed over the archive without the player actually noticing it. 

[Lucas Holder]

You make many valid points @Seoulmate and I have some ideas on how to fix them. I'm the guy who wrote the fair verification tool and Chrome extension (https://forum.stake.com/topic/33246-bet-verification-extension-work-in-progress/?tab=comments#comment-696750) and who found the incorrect verification documentation that @toohoola mentioned. I will analyze the possible "attacks" methodically one by one and propose some possible solutions. Be warned, some self promotion ahead!

1) Casino predicting future bet outcomes and reacting accordingly (e.g. slowing down UI)

The obvious solution for this one would be to change the client seed on every bet. That way, the site wouldn't be able to predict future bet outcomes. This is not very practical to do manually but it could be automated via a browser extension (hint: this is on the roadmap for the Fair browser extension I'm working on).

2) Technical issues (e.g. missing bets in the bets archive)

Again, assuming you had a browser extension designed for that, it could automatically keep track of bets for you and keep a local (or cloud) copy of all your bets (hint: this is also on the roadmap for the Fair extension I'm working on!).

3) Site flat out refusing to honor a bet

This one is very tricky and is going to require a longer post. Basically, you can't force a centralized casino to honor a bet but there's perhaps a way to publicly expose a site that engages in such behavior (in a provable manner). There could even be a way to FORCE a site to honor a valid bet through a smart contract designed just for such purpose. I have some ideas on how to solve this but it's quite complex and I'm going to need to do a bit more thinking!

Happy gambling folks

 

[Seoulmate]

Yes the way to tackle that is to change seed after every bet, then the outcomes cant be known I think.

On 4/14/2020 at 11:27 PM, toohoola said:

 They could do such, but why would they?

 

 

I think if you play manually some of the things I mentioned can break your concentration, and disrupt a winning streak.

If you betting using a script then it's probably not an issue.

[Aiza824]

7 minutes ago, tdotclub said:

the funny thing is that all  that happen here website crashes, blackjack dealer takes too long and i get misclicks etc... this all happen after the corona and after they started doing the reload bonus. I am little skeptical on this site not going t lie. I am a gold member here as well i see some irregularity.

I have seen those things as well but it has garnered not enough bearing for me to doubt the site. Sure, they won't taint their well-esrned and growing reputation from the whales just because they want a whole bitcoin from a player when they were already earning hundreds as much everyday.

[Seoulmate]

3 hours ago, tdotclub said:

the funny thing is that all  that happen here website crashes, blackjack dealer takes too long and i get misclicks etc... this all happen after the corona and after they started doing the reload bonus. I am little skeptical on this site not going t lie. I am a gold member here as well i see some irregularity.

Thanks for your reponse, but this topic is really concerned with the general concept of "Provably Fair", and how it can be abused by rogue casino operators. It is not a crtitique of Stake's implementation of "Provably Fair". If you have issues in that regard could you please create a separate topic for that in the Stake section of the forum.

22 hours ago, Lucas Holder said:

You make many valid points @Seoulmate and I have some ideas on how to fix them. I'm the guy who wrote the fair verification tool and Chrome extension (https://forum.stake.com/topic/33246-bet-verification-extension-work-in-progress/?tab=comments#comment-696750) and who found the incorrect verification documentation that @toohoola mentioned. I will analyze the possible "attacks" methodically one by one and propose some possible solutions. Be warned, some self promotion ahead!

1) Casino predicting future bet outcomes and reacting accordingly (e.g. slowing down UI)

The obvious solution for this one would be to change the client seed on every bet. That way, the site wouldn't be able to predict future bet outcomes. This is not very practical to do manually but it could be automated via a browser extension (hint: this is on the roadmap for the Fair browser extension I'm working on).

2) Technical issues (e.g. missing bets in the bets archive)

Again, assuming you had a browser extension designed for that, it could automatically keep track of bets for you and keep a local (or cloud) copy of all your bets (hint: this is also on the roadmap for the Fair extension I'm working on!).

3) Site flat out refusing to honor a bet

This one is very tricky and is going to require a longer post. Basically, you can't force a centralized casino to honor a bet but there's perhaps a way to publicly expose a site that engages in such behavior (in a provable manner). There could even be a way to FORCE a site to honor a valid bet through a smart contract designed just for such purpose. I have some ideas on how to solve this but it's quite complex and I'm going to need to do a bit more thinking!

Happy gambling folks

 

So many good ideas, and  lots of work involved, why not skip all of that and open a casino 😉 

[Tetilioapottol]

Thats why we have random client seed and server seed. But idk, we are still playing with computer anyway

[Seoulmate]

23 hours ago, tdotclub said:

https://www.askgamblers.com/casino-complaints/stake-casino-country-restricted-but-let-me-sign-up-deposit-after-2-weeks-i-got-denied-to-enter-website

please take a look at this and i side with the player so i don't think they care about tainting there name.

i don't know after seeing some irregularity on this site i have my suspicions.

🙄
If I were you I would use another case to support whatever argument it is your making. That post you reference is just another gambler who lost his money and is now clutching desperately at any straw trying to get his money back.

We get a few of those in here each week always the same, weak arguments buried under verbally abusive and exaggerated allegations.

[Lucas Holder]

3 hours ago, Seoulmate said:

🙄
If I were you I would use another case to support whatever argument it is your making. That post you reference is just another gambler who lost his money and is now clutching desperately at any straw trying to get his money back.

We get a few of those in here each week always the same, weak arguments buried under verbally abusive and exaggerated allegations.

Indeed. Unless there were hundreds of similar videos, it's just probably an unintentional accident by the dealer. Doing that intentionally seems like it would take a lot of skill. If I were the casino though, I'd probably still give a win to the player to remove any doubt and avoid having to deal with the bad press.

[Dp10011]

Do not know. The topic addressed is a very controversial issue. I have been playing for over 6 years in online casinos and even today (I think) I had no problems with that.
There is a lot of suspicion about online gambling. I still suspect some things today.
For a casino to do this, the team must be very good at cheating or the player very young at being deceived by cheating.

[Seoulmate]

19 hours ago, Dp10011 said:

Do not know. The topic addressed is a very controversial issue. I have been playing for over 6 years in online casinos and even today (I think) I had no problems with that.
There is a lot of suspicion about online gambling. I still suspect some things today.
For a casino to do this, the team must be very good at cheating or the player very young at being deceived by cheating.

 

Why is this a controversial issue?

The topic is addressing what could be done by a rogue casino operator, with the "provably fair" system. Players having an awareness of possible exploits of the "fair play" system is a good thing for the players and also any legitimate casinos.

 

[Tarek2333]

To earn this trust, dozens of Bitcoin casinos use provably fair algorithms Unfair casinos that claim to be 'provably fair' will cheat players by interfering with this process.

Unfairness in provably fair casinos. With normal casinos, information like results of the game and handsEach casino game has a different algorithm for calculating its fairness.

[Hassan2121]

I believe the outcome of your game might be revealed to them even if you have not seen your results, therefore I don’t find the casino fair enough 

[Seoulmate]

10 minutes ago, Hassan2121 said:

I believe the outcome of your game might be revealed to them even if you have not seen your results, therefore I don’t find the casino fair enough 

Yes so we have established the way around this is to change your seed after each bet.

[nikowin88]

On 4/15/2020 at 4:59 AM, Lucas Holder said:

You make many valid points @Seoulmate and I have some ideas on how to fix them. I'm the guy who wrote the fair verification tool and Chrome extension (https://forum.stake.com/topic/33246-bet-verification-extension-work-in-progress/?tab=comments#comment-696750) and who found the incorrect verification documentation that @toohoola mentioned. I will analyze the possible "attacks" methodically one by one and propose some possible solutions. Be warned, some self promotion ahead!

1) Casino predicting future bet outcomes and reacting accordingly (e.g. slowing down UI)

The obvious solution for this one would be to change the client seed on every bet. That way, the site wouldn't be able to predict future bet outcomes. This is not very practical to do manually but it could be automated via a browser extension (hint: this is on the roadmap for the Fair browser extension I'm working on).

2) Technical issues (e.g. missing bets in the bets archive)

Again, assuming you had a browser extension designed for that, it could automatically keep track of bets for you and keep a local (or cloud) copy of all your bets (hint: this is also on the roadmap for the Fair extension I'm working on!).

3) Site flat out refusing to honor a bet

This one is very tricky and is going to require a longer post. Basically, you can't force a centralized casino to honor a bet but there's perhaps a way to publicly expose a site that engages in such behavior (in a provable manner). There could even be a way to FORCE a site to honor a valid bet through a smart contract designed just for such purpose. I have some ideas on how to solve this but it's quite complex and I'm going to need to do a bit more thinking!

Happy gambling folks

 

Was just wandering on forum when I found this very interesting discussion .

First of all @Lucas Holder congrats for your tool , I have bookmarked it and will be using it in the close future.

For last point of your post about Casino refusing to pay a winning bet, there already exist third part site like "Sports Books Review" known as SBR. Who centralized most of the sports book and is running a reporting of all customer complain. So a sportbooks rated A+ as Pinnacle or Bet365 won't let a complain ruin their rating and for. That reason is willing to solve all case. And as everything is done publicly the customer can't abuse with false claim.

The result is  you can see most of the issues solved. When it's issues on legit sportbook. Sportbooks rated C and D often just don't even reply to queries...

I don't know if that already exist for casino or crypto Casino. I don't think so.

But well it would be really a great thing to have that.  Legit Casino as Stake would benefit it from showing proof they actually care about their customer issue. 1'd customer would benefit from being able to stay away from scam casino easiestly.

Anyway again great work I'll be looking forward for your next upgrades

[lysagrey]

It happens I guess. I never had problems like that myself though. I think it all depends on what casino you are actually choosing to play. I for example prefer to play casinos that have at least a little bit of reputation but also those who usually have servers outside the US ( I feel like it is safer for me that way and I lose less money because of the exchange rate). I know that it might come of a little weird but i works for me so meh. I currently am playing slots and Russian roulette at an online casino called joker123 (if you guys are interested in trying them out you can check them here: http://112.140.187.124/ ) I have been having a lot of fun playing there. They have a lot of different games as well as some really nice bonuses for loyal players so to speak. As I said I never had any problem with them regarding the way the website worked or the way they payed out winnings. I think that if you guys are interested in slots or other games you can give it a go.

[GOLDTRADER]

I think sometimes it's fair and sometimes it's not. Lucky time tomorrow and unlucky time.

[Seuntjie]

OP is addressing 2 distinct issues that I an identify. 1. Manipulating their systems to make you lose (speeding up losing streaks, interrupting auto betting during a winning streak etc) and 2. manipulating your psychology to make you lose (popups to break concentration etc)

 

1. there's a few things to address. Let's start with a simple example. You're the casino and you know that my next roll is going to be 98.76. Am I going to win or lose my bet? At this point you can't answer because you don't know whether I am betting high or low, or what chance I'm betting at. The only way the site could know is if you tell them exactly how you're betting before you start betting, or if they have a pattern recognition system that can determine your betting strategy. The latter is extremely difficult to implement (it could range from a simple check to see if you're doing martingale to an extremely complex AI) and that algorithm could possibly be worth as much as the casino if they pull it off properly. In addition, it could be a very dangerous thing for the casino to do, because if you decide to make a change to your betting strategy, the AI would predict your bets incorrectly and could cause a speed up on a winning streak instead etc.

Of course there are simpler versions of this, like forcing a refresh of your page when you get 10 wins in a row, but that would still be detectable and provable from a clients perspective (there has to be some way in the front end to tell the page to refresh and you have full access to the JS that would do that) and doesn't require knowledge about your future rolls, and it has an easy solution; use a third party betting tool to automate your bets that is not susceptible to the refresh/disconnect and can resume betting.

 

2. This is the same thing brick and mortar casinos do by having no windows an clocks in the gambling area so you can't tell the passage of time, offering free drinks to high rollers to get them tipsy/drunk, all the bells and whistles and constant noise on the floor. While I think it's an unethical thing to do, it doesn't change the game or your outcome, so I don't it should be considered unfair. 

 

 

tldr; It's very difficult to near impossible to do anything with the knowledge of your future rolls, deliberate interruptions of auto betting are detectable and provable and have a work around. Breaking your attention is wrong but not unfair and common place in casinos.

 

 

Edit: Just noticed this is a necrod thread from months ago.

[Domosboy]

Every game has its “house edge” to it. How I truthfully look at it is either you get lucky or you don’t, can’t bet according to statistics. That statistic/ probably fair is also probably a average of sessions.

[1UnLuckyGambler]

On 4/14/2020 at 9:47 AM, Seoulmate said:

Please Note: This Topic is concerned with the general concept of "Provably Fair" and how it may be abused by rogue casino operators. It is not a critique of Stake's implementation of "Provably Fair". IF you have specific issues with Stake please create a separate topic for discussion.

With the "provably fair" system, casino operators are unable to change the outcomes in your game without running the risk of being discovered through  a verification process.However they can know in advance what those outcomes will be in your game. The casino operator has the client seed their own hashed seed and the nonce is sequential. These are the 3 elements that create the string of outcomes that determine the result in your game as you play.

So it's quite possible that a rogue casino operator can know the outcomes in your game before they happen, "so what?" you ask, "they can't change them. What can they do?"

A rogue operator could speed up your game during losing streaks to ensure maximum losses, and they can slow down the game as you approach a winning streak or target, or even disconnect you from the server briefly to disrupt your autobet settings, force a screen refresh, or even crash your browser. They can send you visual notifications that break your concentration, obscure part of the screen that gives you feedback on play and generally disrupt your rythm of play when you are in that winning zone.

So it's possible that a casino can be "provably fair" and unfair in how it operates. The examples above I have experienced from time to time on various sites. Does anyone have any experience of these? or seen other methods to disrupt a players winning streak?

I've looked into buying a white label online casino....and was told straight up by the creator/seller that, "The provably fair system can be manipulated."

Actually took screen shots as it was on telegram and figured he'd eventually delete that part.

But yes.....it is possible. Worth it? probably not; why risk your entire business for a few bucks when you're guaranteed to make BANK providing a straight up game? I mean, it has happened in the past (google Absolute poker/Ultimate bet superusers if interested in reading about biggest online poker fraud to date) just do your research before putting your $$ into a site.

Greed is a motherf*cker.