Provably Not Fair?

[twitchsteveo13]

So I have been questioning Stakes house games with their so called provably fair system.

Correct me if im wrong.

So how can they call something provably fair if you can only see the results after unhashing the seed.

Any bets made before unhashing are recorded and their respective payouts, thats fine and legit.

But you physically need to unhash the seed to see future payouts, meaning anything past the point of unhashing can technically just be made up out of thin air, it actually doesn't prove anything to be provably fair considering there is that window after you unhash for verification, for a system to generate misleading nonce results that may or may not have ever happened.

So provably fair on what terms? Your basically relying on Stake to show the real results once unhashed and are just expected to believe them on what is generated...

In what world can someone call that provably fair? Sounds more like provably able to rig it in stealth making it seem provably fair.

Surely Im not the only one who realized this?

 

[Ihateoverwatch]

Damn yea I feel you, really interesting point you brought up. 

[dupeddonk]

52 minutes ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

So I have been questioning Stakes house games with their so called provably fair system.

Correct me if im wrong.

So how can they call something provably fair if you can only see the results after unhashing the seed.

Any bets made before unhashing are recorded and their respective payouts, thats fine and legit.

But you physically need to unhash the seed to see future payouts, meaning anything past the point of unhashing can technically just be made up out of thin air, it actually doesn't prove anything to be provably fair considering there is that window after you unhash for verification, for a system to generate misleading nonce results that may or may not have ever happened.

So provably fair on what terms? Your basically relying on Stake to show the real results once unhashed and are just expected to believe them on what is generated...

In what world can someone call that provably fair? Sounds more like provably able to rig it in stealth making it seem provably fair.

Surely Im not the only one who realized this?

 

They give you the hashed server seed before you choose your client seed to prove that the server seed is decided first and not changed after they know what you choose for the client seed. Otherwise, they could just wait till your provide the client seed and then choose a bad server seed.

In the end the server seed is chosen without knowing what the client seed is, and the client seed is chosen without knowing the server seed. As long as this is the case, the results are unpredictable. 

When you change your seed, you don't really "unhash" the server seed, you're just checking to see if the revealed server seed matches the hash that was provided. "Unhashing" a sha256 hash isn't possible with technology today, if it were the the function would be obsolete. 

[twitchsteveo13]

1 hour ago, dupeddonk said:

They give you the hashed server seed before you choose your client seed to prove that the server seed is decided first and not changed after they know what you choose for the client seed. Otherwise, they could just wait till your provide the client seed and then choose a bad server seed.

In the end the server seed is chosen without knowing what the client seed is, and the client seed is chosen without knowing the server seed. As long as this is the case, the results are unpredictable. 

When you change your seed, you don't really "unhash" the server seed, you're just checking to see if the revealed server seed matches the hash that was provided. "Unhashing" a sha256 hash isn't possible with technology today, if it were the the function would be obsolete. 

nah you totally didn't get the point i was making.

results are hidden until unhashed leaving time for manipulation once you go to verify and unhash it, the following result could literally be made up out of thin air.

they literally expect you to believe the rest of the results they show are legit after unhashing.

has nothing to do with client and server side, its the after facts that could be made up out of thin air.

read my initial post carefully and you will see, i pointed it out clear as day.

In the end they just expect you to believe the third party results are legit, who knows who owns that third party could easily be a subsidiary of stake, that is the point. Its not actually provably fair they just show you two things that line up after the fact and that literally means nothing.

[kayttobr]

2 hours ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

nah you totally didn't get the point i was making.

results are hidden until unhashed leaving time for manipulation once you go to verify and unhash it, the following result could literally be made up out of thin air.

they literally expect you to believe the rest of the results they show are legit after unhashing.

has nothing to do with client and server side, its the after facts that could be made up out of thin air.

read my initial post carefully and you will see, i pointed it out clear as day.

In the end they just expect you to believe the third party results are legit, who knows who owns that third party could easily be a subsidiary of stake, that is the point. Its not actually provably fair they just show you two things that line up after the fact and that literally means nothing.

I've already made this point before as well, the future result could just be a "ghost-story" for all we know, we don't know if the future bets are actually what would happen, as there is no proof of it.

1: The server seed is something the server assigns they say, and 2: the client seed is what you choose to be assigned. In all reality you don't choose anything, all you do is have 2 variables and the results are "generated" by Stake themselves, you have no control over what is chosen.

The main problem here is also that the so called client-seed that perfectly lines up with the server seed can be bogus as-well, for all we know the client-seed that matches the server-seed on the past bets and shows the same result on both can be that it's empty, a blank paper with no results, and after "changing" the seed, it just copies the values from variable A to variable B, making them 100% identical, or vice versa. And Voila, 0 proof that it's unaltered.

And regarding changing the server seed, it also might be just pure bullshit too, you never truly change your seed and you go through all the generated output's they have, because all we know is the past bets made, they record those and they are imprinted in the "seed" then, when you change the seed, they'll be "gone" and now you have a "new" set of bets,

- On your new sheet you make 2 bets and change it, and verify, now you can only view the past 2, but in reality, it can actually be all your past bets + the 2, whereas you never truly know if the future results are affected and not just a pre-determined crap made by Stake.

Back to my initial point, the only way this could be provably fair is if we would actually get to download our client-seed, and stored OFFLINE. (This means the file still functions without any connection to the internet to prevent alterations)

- Have it encrypted as a file and not read-able until Stake provides you with a random-generated-key that gets put in to show the initial result that it's decrypted with a one-time-code (Like a serial number assigned to it etc)

This will be done only after you change the seed, and then it can be read like a normal .txt spreadsheet, or verified online, etc to be 100% certain it wasn't altered in anyway, same with the server hash.

If we could actually download and store those files with a high-level encryption to provide fairness to equal ways (prevent alterations and hacking etc), then we finally can say it's provably fair.

Until then, it's 100% a scam and they make a lot of money from it, so stay away from Stake Originals

[Kirito89]

4 hours ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

nah you totally didn't get the point i was making.

results are hidden until unhashed leaving time for manipulation once you go to verify and unhash it, the following result could literally be made up out of thin air.

they literally expect you to believe the rest of the results they show are legit after unhashing.

has nothing to do with client and server side, its the after facts that could be made up out of thin air.

read my initial post carefully and you will see, i pointed it out clear as day.

In the end they just expect you to believe the third party results are legit, who knows who owns that third party could easily be a subsidiary of stake, that is the point. Its not actually provably fair they just show you two things that line up after the fact and that literally means nothing.

Actually he explained it pretty well and is 100% accurate on what he said , now it's up to you if you have the brain power to process that .

[dupeddonk]

4 hours ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

results are hidden until unhashed leaving time for manipulation once you go to verify and unhash it, the following result could literally be made up out of thin air.

Verifying the bet will prove whether or not anything was manipulated after you set your client seed. 

Each result is determined by hashing the client seed + player seed + nonce. The nonce increases by 1 each bet. Once you set your client seed, the results are determined up until the point you decide to change to a different client seed. If anything is manipulated, then the verification will fail. 

[twitchsteveo13]

57 minutes ago, dupeddonk said:

Verifying the bet will prove whether or not anything was manipulated after you set your client seed. 

Each result is determined by hashing the client seed + player seed + nonce. The nonce increases by 1 each bet. Once you set your client seed, the results are determined up until the point you decide to change to a different client seed. If anything is manipulated, then the verification will fail. 

How could it possibly fail if it hasn't happened yet, something that has not happened yet CAN be altered how do you not understand that?

There is nothing wrong with the system, until the point when you unhash then its all grey and thats the most crucial part of the whole thing.

[dupeddonk]

2 hours ago, kayttobr said:

you have no control over what is chosen.

You have control over:

-What the client seed is.

-When the seed pair is changed.

-What game is played.

-How much is wagered.

-Any available game options (risk level, keno spots, plinko rows, slot lines, multiplier, etc.)

All of these things directly influenced the outcome. The only thing the house controls that directly influences the outcome is what the server seed is, and it's chosen before you make any of your decisions. 

 

[twitchsteveo13]

1 hour ago, Kirito89 said:

Actually he explained it pretty well and is 100% accurate on what he said , now it's up to you if you have the brain power to process that .

Actually no they didn't even answer the main point of my question. Something that hasn't yet happened can be altered. 

How do you not see that?

This has nothing to do with the bets that took place already and were finalized, its all about after the unhash.

4 minutes ago, dupeddonk said:

You have control over:

-What the client seed is.

-When the seed pair is changed.

-What game is played.

-How much is wagered.

-Any available game options (risk level, keno spots, plinko rows, slot lines, multiplier, etc.)

All of these things directly influenced the outcome. The only thing the house controls that directly influences the outcome is what the server seed is, and it's chosen before you make any of your decisions. 

 

once again, thats during gameplay, im talking about after you crack it open to verify the hashed result via nonce, for example to see where the next 1000x is sitting.

these results are not actually provably fair and technically could be made up.

for some reason you are answering other aspects but avoiding the one im bringing up constantly.

[dupeddonk]

1 minute ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

How could it possibly fail if it hasn't happened yet, something that has not happened yet CAN be altered how do you not understand that?

Of course, you can't verify bets that haven't happened, only bets that have already been made, because logic. 

However, you can see the results for each nonce for every game and option once the server seed is revealed, regardless of whether or not a bet was placed.

For example, if you hit a 420x in plinko, you can change your seed and go check if it would have hit a 620x if you would have bet 15 rows or 1000x with 16 rows. (There's a 50% chance you would've hit 620x and 25% chance 1000x)

[twitchsteveo13]

3 hours ago, kayttobr said:

I've already made this point before as well, the future result could just be a "ghost-story" for all we know, we don't know if the future bets are actually what would happen, as there is no proof of it.

1: The server seed is something the server assigns they say, and 2: the client seed is what you choose to be assigned. In all reality you don't choose anything, all you do is have 2 variables and the results are "generated" by Stake themselves, you have no control over what is chosen.

The main problem here is also that the so called client-seed that perfectly lines up with the server seed can be bogus as-well, for all we know the client-seed that matches the server-seed on the past bets and shows the same result on both can be that it's empty, a blank paper with no results, and after "changing" the seed, it just copies the values from variable A to variable B, making them 100% identical, or vice versa. And Voila, 0 proof that it's unaltered.

And regarding changing the server seed, it also might be just pure bullshit too, you never truly change your seed and you go through all the generated output's they have, because all we know is the past bets made, they record those and they are imprinted in the "seed" then, when you change the seed, they'll be "gone" and now you have a "new" set of bets,

- On your new sheet you make 2 bets and change it, and verify, now you can only view the past 2, but in reality, it can actually be all your past bets + the 2, whereas you never truly know if the future results are affected and not just a pre-determined crap made by Stake.

Back to my initial point, the only way this could be provably fair is if we would actually get to download our client-seed, and stored OFFLINE. (This means the file still functions without any connection to the internet to prevent alterations)

- Have it encrypted as a file and not read-able until Stake provides you with a random-generated-key that gets put in to show the initial result that it's decrypted with a one-time-code (Like a serial number assigned to it etc)

This will be done only after you change the seed, and then it can be read like a normal .txt spreadsheet, or verified online, etc to be 100% certain it wasn't altered in anyway, same with the server hash.

If we could actually download and store those files with a high-level encryption to provide fairness to equal ways (prevent alterations and hacking etc), then we finally can say it's provably fair.

Until then, it's 100% a scam and they make a lot of money from it, so stay away from Stake Originals

Yeah you 100% understand what im saying. Thank you for such a detailed response. It is exactly what i was thinking as well.

[dupeddonk]

5 minutes ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

these results are not actually provably fair and technically could be made up.

Each seed pair has it's own set of results for every nonce. Nobody can change that without changing either seed. What you're saying is not logical. 

2 hours ago, Tokai2021 said:

Find HufflePuff, he reverse engineered it and exploited it.

find him and you will be enlighted  

He figured out an exploit that gave him the server seed, so he knew the outcome of every bet before it was made. 

[twitchsteveo13]

7 minutes ago, dupeddonk said:

Of course, you can't verify bets that haven't happened, only bets that have already been made, because logic. 

However, you can see the results for each nonce for every game and option once the server seed is revealed, regardless of whether or not a bet was placed.

For example, if you hit a 420x in plinko, you can change your seed and go check if it would have hit a 620x if you would have bet 15 rows or 1000x with 16 rows. (There's a 50% chance you would've hit 620x and 25% chance 1000x)

thats the point i was making. future bets can literally be bogus and made up, good to see you understand that was my whole point and what i was questioning to begin with. had nothing to do with already played rounds.

4 minutes ago, dupeddonk said:

Each seed pair has it's own set of results for every nonce. Nobody can change that without changing either seed. What you're saying is not logical. 

He figured out an exploit that gave him the server seed, so he knew the outcome of every bet before it was made. 

yeah i want to believe that, but any proof this ever happened or was it just talk, cause just talk means literally nothing.

[dupeddonk]

7 minutes ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

Back to my initial point, the only way this could be provably fair is if we would actually get to download our client-seed, and stored OFFLINE.

I've explained this to you many times. You can. And you must. It's only 64 characters, so the easiest way to download it and store it offline is to copy it and paste it somewhere like a note pad app and then save it for when you change your seed. If you don't do this, you can't prove anything really. 

There's no logical reason to encrypt it or anything else you mentioned. Just copy the hash and save it somewhere. 

5 minutes ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

future bets can literally be bogus and made up,

No, they can't. 

Each seed pair has it's own set of results for every nonce. Nobody can change that without changing either seed. What you're saying is not logical. 

[twitchsteveo13]

11 minutes ago, dupeddonk said:

I've explained this to you many times. You can. And you must. It's only 64 characters, so the easiest way to download it and store it offline is to copy it and paste it somewhere like a note pad app and then save it for when you change your seed. If you don't do this, you can't prove anything really. 

the 64 characters is meaningless as once its unhashed new data sets would be added for all future bets and they could literally be anything.

once again its not bets that occurred already no issue there, its bets that haven't, future bets to prove a seeds validity could literally be all created as soon as its unhashed.

for it to be truly fair you would have to download the file with all bets on that seed and it be encrypted before you even did one bet on that seed, then only once you unhased it via stake they would supply a password to unlock that file that was on your pc the entire time to verify future bets, now thats provably fair.

the system in place right now is not, it has loopholes and can be altered on future bets.

copying 64 characters is simply not even close to the same thing and has zero validity on future bets.

[twitchsteveo13]

5 minutes ago, paulagpawan said:

Hi, you might want to try Wildbet.io, a provably fair casino focusing on cryptocurrency.

I still like stake for slots and stuff, i was seeing if anyone else seen the issue and clearly others do.

For it to be provably fair you need to download the entire seed as a file and for it to be password locked before you even make a single bet on that seed and saved to your pc where it cant be altered then and only then is it actually provably fair once stake gives the password for unhashing and unlocking the file on your pc.

until a system like that is implemented, sorry to say its not provably fair and future bets can be altered.

[chicktokpro]

Ez way to solved it, is to not doing any of it. Your -EV in the first place so why bother?

It will never be fair!!! 

[twitchsteveo13]

2 minutes ago, chicktokpro said:

Ez way to solved it, is to not doing any of it. Your -EV in the first place so why bother?

It will never be fair!!! 

for sure, even though its not provably fair i still play house games every now and then.

also pushing for an actually provably fair system doesn't hurt either maybe they will actually listen to the ideas and implement them at some point.

if they took a step back and listened they would actually see how in a players eyes its not actually provably fair, especially in regards to future bets that have not occurred yet.

[Ramukaka]

OMG, I didn't this of this! That might be true rather factually it appears to be true 👍 

[quntti]

All code is provided and you can run it yourself to verify the results after changing the seed if you don't trust stake to show you the correct results with the tool they provide.

[twitchsteveo13]

36 minutes ago, quntti said:

All code is provided and you can run it yourself to verify the results after changing the seed if you don't trust stake to show you the correct results with the tool they provide.

its not about that, its the fact future bets can be altered as soon as you unhash/change seed and go to verify. if you read some of my last replies you will understand better.

[dupeddonk]

1 hour ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

the 64 characters is meaningless as once its unhashed new data sets would be added for all future bets and they could literally be anything.

It's not meaningless, it's the SHA256 hash of the server seed. It's 64 hexadecimal characters which make up 256 bytes, which is what every hash is.

Again, every single SHA256 hash can be represented by 64 characters.

In this case, it represents the hash of the server seed.

And once again, you're really not "unhashing" anything. You're just comparing the server seed hash to the hash provided before you set your client seed. If the two match, then you know the server seed was set before you set your client seed.

Your claims about data sets being added and downloading the entire seed as a file requiring encryption are nonsensical.  The person you heard this from doesn't understand as much as they seem to appear you think they do. 

[twitchsteveo13]

58 minutes ago, Ramukaka said:

OMG, I didn't this of this! That might be true rather factually it appears to be true 👍 

yeah it frequently gets over looked even by the most hardcore players. but it is 100% a concerning issue.

anyways me and kayttobr set out a proper solution that would fix these concerns and flaws, its just whether or not stake wants to listen and implement such a system for their players and peace of mind.

[dupeddonk]

6 minutes ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

its the fact future bets can be altered as soon as you unhash/change seed and go to verify. if

This is false.

Each seed pair has it's own set of results for every nonce. Nobody can change that without changing either seed. What you're saying is not logical. 

2 minutes ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

anyways me and kayttobr set out a proper solution

Your solution makes literally no sense. How would downloading a file be better than copying the hash and saving it to a file yourself? (It wouldn't) and what would be the point of encrypting that file? (There is no point)