Provably Not Fair?

[twitchsteveo13]

8 minutes ago, dupeddonk said:

It's not meaningless, it's the SHA256 hash of the server seed. It's 64 hexadecimal characters which make up 256 bytes, which is what every hash is.

Again, every single SHA256 hash can be represented by 64 characters.

In this case, it represents the hash of the server seed.

And once again, you're really not "unhashing" anything. You're just comparing the server seed hash to the hash provided before you set your client seed. If the two match, then you know the server seed was sweet before you set your client seed.

Your claims about data sets being added and downloading the entire seed as a file requiring encryption are nonsensical.  

you realize what you just said proves the flaw in the system, your words not mine.

you literally rely on stake to be truthful on the comparison between seeds, not bets place but future bets not placed, you do realize these seeds come from somewhere right they have been generated and created, they can also be altered for future bets that have not occurred, especially if they are not stored by the player personally on a safe device.

6 minutes ago, dupeddonk said:

This is false.

Each seed pair has it's own set of results for every nonce. Nobody can change that without changing either seed. What you're saying is not logical. 

Your solution makes literally no sense. How would downloading a file be better than copying the hash and saving it to a file yourself? (It wouldn't) and what would be the point of encrypting that file? (There is no point)

the part of the hash that hasn't happened yet can just be made up out of thin air upon unhashing to verify, where as if it was downloaded and stored it could be factually relied upon as being legit. There is no questioning it. The flaw occurs right when you go to verify the seeds nonce, all bets placed are factual and legit, but anything after the point of verifying becomes grey and actually cant be verified as legit via the method they are using currently, it relies on trusting stake and whatever third party they use.

[dupeddonk]

Just now, twitchsteveo13 said:

you literally rely on stake to be truthful on the comparison between seed

No, you don't. If you were to download a file like @kayttobr suggested you would though. 

They provide the hash, you provide the client seed. To verify, you compare the provided hash with the hash of the revealed server seed. If they match, you know the server seed was set before you chose the client seed.

At this point it's looking more and more like your more interested in gas lighting than any sort of good faith discussion about how probably fair works m very little of what you've said in this thread so far is logical. 

[twitchsteveo13]

19 minutes ago, dupeddonk said:

No, you don't. If you were to download a file like @kayttobr suggested you would though. 

They provide the hash, you provide the client seed. To verify, you compare the provided hash with the hash of the revealed server seed. If they match, you know the server seed was set before you chose the client seed.

At this point it's looking more and more like your more interested in gas lighting than any sort of good faith discussion about how probably fair works m very little of what you've said in this thread so far is logical. 

where do you think the client seed comes from, where do you think the hash comes from. who do you think can intervene when you go to verify such seed, as soon as you click rotate boom the deed is done and there is no proof saying it wasn't done. 

Where as with a downloaded file you physically know its on your pc and untouched by any third party before any bets were placed, and only viewable once the seed was rotated providing a verification password to unlock it and compare with stakes version and the version saved to your pc.

I am not gas lighting anything but you still to this point in time are avoiding the issue.

Its literally like you cant see the problem, its clear as day, either that or your just plain and simple avoiding it purposely.

Anyways I dont want to argue with you, if you cant see the issue then thats on you. Clearly others see the problem and its not just me.

[dupeddonk]

Just now, twitchsteveo13 said:

where do you think the client seed comes from
 

The client seed is also known as the player seed. It comes from the player, it can be whatever you want. 

3 minutes ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

where do you think the hash comes from.

The hash is the server seeds SHA256 hash. The casino can't tell you what the server seed is out you'd be able to calculate all the outcomes ahead of time. But they need to prove that they choose the server seed before you set the client seed, so they provide the hash. I recommend research one way hash functions to get a good grasp of how this concept works.

 

6 minutes ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

with a downloaded file you physically know its on your pc and untouched by any third party, and only viewable once unhashed for a verification password to unlock it and compare.

Again this makes literally no sense to me, but hey maybe I'm wrong.

What type of file should be downloaded?

How should it be encrypted?

How should the password be determined?

How does the file on your system know when the server seed has been "unhashed"?

What is the benefit of encrypting a file to verify it hasn't been changed vs being provided with it's hash? 

 

I highly suggest researching hashing functions. If you need a place to start this looks like it covers what you need to know: https://www.csoonline.com/article/3602698/hashing-explained-why-its-your-best-bet-to-protect-stored-passwords.html

[twitchsteveo13]

17 minutes ago, dupeddonk said:

The client seed is also known as the player seed. It comes from the player, it can be whatever you want. 

The hash is the server seeds SHA256 hash. The casino can't tell you what the server seed is out you'd be able to calculate all the outcomes ahead of time. But they need to prove that they choose the server seed before you set the client seed, so they provide the hash. I recommend research one way hash functions to get a good grasp of how this concept works.

 

Again this makes literally no sense to me, but hey maybe I'm wrong.

What type of file should be downloaded?

How should it be encrypted?

How should the password be determined?

How does the file on your system know when the server seed has been "unhashed"?

What is the benefit of encrypting a file to verify it hasn't been changed vs being provided with it's hash? 

 

the client seed does not come from the player, you are simply rotating it to find one you want to use, Its not like the player has direct access to that raw data, they give you the 64 code and thats it, only once its rotated for verification does a player gain access.

You can actually use a simple txt file within a zip file, zip files can be password protected and none of the contents within can be accessed without the correct password.

So when you go to rotate the seed, a button would pop up saying download seed, you would download the zip file and at the same time stake would generate a password for that zip file, the password only gets revealed once you rotate the seed, heck the password and stakes version of that seed could even be directly emailed to you similar to how they email your stats once you click rotate. this ensures players can only access the results once its taken out of rotation and no longer playable.

Really as simple as that.

 

[dupeddonk]

15 minutes ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

the client seed does not come from the player, you are simply rotating it to find one you want to use,

Instead of clicking rotate, you should create your own. Just type in whatever you want. Using a client seed generated by the casino provides a better user experience for players that don't want to be bothered with the probably fair system, but it does not allow the player to prove that the outcome was determined in a probably fair way. 

15 minutes ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

Really as simple as that.

Read the link I posted above. Trust me, there's a gap in your understanding of what's going on and it explains the concept better than I could. 

[maverick528]

I think that the ppl that say the worst things about provably fair are the ones that dont understand even a little bit about it.

Then they can develop conspiration theories about it cause everything is blurry and imprecise in their minds, but it is not. 

I can see here that some ppl dont know that at the moment you rotate seeds you can type your own client seed instead of using the random one the casino provides, and that is why its called "client seed".

 

[byproduct]

1 hour ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

the client seed does not come from the player, you are simply rotating it to find one you want to use, Its not like the player has direct access to that raw data, they give you the 64 code and thats it, only once its rotated for verification does a player gain access.

You can actually use a simple txt file within a zip file, zip files can be password protected and none of the contents within can be accessed without the correct password.

So when you go to rotate the seed, a button would pop up saying download seed, you would download the zip file and at the same time stake would generate a password for that zip file, the password only gets revealed once you rotate the seed, heck the password and stakes version of that seed could even be directly emailed to you similar to how they email your stats once you click rotate. this ensures players can only access the results once its taken out of rotation and no longer playable.

Really as simple as that.

 

You need to take the cotton out of your ears, and put it in your mouth.  You are actually wrong, and every reply proves you know nothing about what you are saying.  Take the advice of the people calmly explaining it to you-- that maybe you don't understand everything yet and need to go research some more.

Really as simple as that.

[kayttobr]

13 hours ago, dupeddonk said:

He figured out an exploit that gave him the server seed, so he knew the outcome of every bet before it was made. 

Wrong, he sent several requests to the server that changes seed where as the server ended up giving him a used seed but in the same time the server thought of it as active seed. Had nothing to do with the server giving him a seed, he just confused the server with too many requests.

 

10 hours ago, dupeddonk said:

Your claims about data sets being added and downloading the entire seed as a file requiring encryption are nonsensical.  The person you heard this from doesn't understand as much as they seem to appear you think they do. 

Also wrong again, you clearly seem to have no idea about encryption do you? Despite programming this garbage system you call provably fair.

How can you not comprehend normal sentences yet claim other people have no idea what they are talking about?

If you dont know enough about how encryptions work now days then read up on them and come back and give a proper answer.

Let me educate you a bit on the idea of storing a file offline to having a byte of string that contains hashed data.

Storing a file offline, no matter what file it is, doesnt allow the file to be tampered with, which means whatever is happening on the server, the variables that are being requested, sent out and what not on script basis does not have any option to alter.

You setting a client seed with a string of text you can copy to later on verify that it matches the server seed itself is a whole flaw and can be exploited by Casinos, which you are doing btw, like many other Casinos done in the past, and you guys think you figured a way to be smart, hilarious.

If the file was stored offline, encrypted so it cannot be viewed by normal means, and cracking it would take 5 to 6 years with our current technology with how advanced encryption is right now, then we could 100% assure that file would be not altered in any-way what so ever.

The file would be encrypted, and password protected, a random generated password will be used and given after you change your seed, similar to verification process, you basically "unlock" the file with the password given by Stake, you then can have all the data of that file either upload it to compare, or manually compare offline to prevent alterations in any way.

The reason why you see its nonsensical is because you have either no clue how encryption works, or you know how flawed your system is that's why you don't see any sense implementing it as all your fuckery would be visible.

The way we are comparing data now is just bogus, you keep saying we set a client seed, and we have control over this and that, and the bets we make, and the games we play, but in reality it doesn't matter, if you want to skip a nonce, or rig a bet, you can and leave no trace behind, because whatever the server-hash is displayed, can easily be imprinted, "copy-pasted" into the client-seed upon verification.

 

Your so called "client-seed" that we have "control" over and that we "set" can for all we know be a whole empty sheet of paper, and as soon as you change the seed, whatever nonces were skipped, bets rigged, etc from the server, will never appear on the client seed because you simply copy the data from A to B, and they will always look identical.

You programmed a shitty scammy way of luring people in and you think you know everything about programming? Sorry to burst your little bubble you have there but you're not the only one with a programming background.

9 hours ago, maverick528 said:

I think that the ppl that say the worst things about provably fair are the ones that dont understand even a little bit about it.

Then they can develop conspiration theories about it cause everything is blurry and imprecise in their minds, but it is not. 

I can see here that some ppl dont know that at the moment you rotate seeds you can type your own client seed instead of using the random one the casino provides, and that is why its called "client seed".

 

What you don't seem to understand is whatever you type, doesn't matter, the text you type is just a freaking variable, it does not affect the data within the client seed IF THE CASINO DOESN'T WANT TO.

It's like renaming a .dat file or .txt document, or your high school PowerPoint presentations that contained 5 slideshows about how much you enjoyed reading Little Princess.

The data stored within will not change if you renamed your PowerPoint file from Little Princess.pp to ImTotallyDumb.pp

[dupeddonk]

1 hour ago, kayttobr said:

If you dont know enough about how encryptions work now days then read up on them and come back and give a proper answer.

I'm fully aware of how encryption works. It seems like you have a decent grasp as well.

But the problem is you don't seem to understand how one way hash functions work, when they should be used, or what the real life benefits of using them appropriately are.  If you decide to put a little effort in to figuring it out, I think you'll quickly understand how silly your suggestion to "encrypt => download => email password => decrypt => verify the server seed" is compared to simply providing the hash of the server seed to the player during step 0.

I assure you, without any doubt, that no rational person with a basic understanding of both hash functions and encryption in general would agree that your suggestion is in any way better than simply providing the player with the hash first thing. They would say it's worse.  And they would know that you must not understand how hash functions work, because only someone that doesn't understand how and when is best to use hash functions would make a suggestion like yours.

How about you figure it out, and we can continue the discussion in good faith, and I promise to never bring up your last few posts arguing your 'suggestion' again.

 

Couple possible places to start:

https://comodosslstore.com/resources/hashing-vs-encryption-simplifying-the-differences/

https://sectigostore.com/blog/hashing-vs-encryption-the-big-players-of-the-cyber-security-world/

 

Some hashing examples (slightly more advanced 😞

https://teachcomputerscience.com/application-of-hashing/#Applications_of_Hashing

1 hour ago, kayttobr said:

What you don't seem to understand is whatever you type, doesn't matter, the text you type is just a freaking variable, it does not affect the data within the client seed IF THE CASINO DOESN'T WANT TO.

It's like renaming a .dat file or .txt document, or your high school PowerPoint presentations that contained 5 slideshows about how much you enjoyed reading Little Princess.

The text you type becomes the client seed, which is required to determine the outcome of the bet.  When you verify the bet, you use the same client seed.  This is the point that you are able to determine whether the text you typed in the box was used (fair) or not (not fair).  

Remember, the system doesn't force the casino to do anything.  You're right, they can do whatever they want.  The PF system simply provides proof that the outcome was determined fairly or not.  

In the case of the 'the text you type", you will be able to prove whether or not it was used to determine the outcome.  

[twitchsteveo13]

Obviously everyone sees the issue, no matter how much dupe or any mods want to try and defend it.

Its clear as day.

Im going to agree to disagree and leave it at that, in the end no one actually proved anything and thats the whole problem with this system, you can only prove bets that occurred and not future bets that haven't occurred, doesn't matter what anyone says thats the bottom line.

Take care and have fun im just not going to respond anymore, so say what you want I honestly could care less was initially pushing for a better system and im shocked you defend the current system.

[dupeddonk]

13 minutes ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

Obviously everyone sees the issue, no matter how much dupe or any mods want to try and defend it.

Its clear as day.

Im going to agree to disagree and leave it at that, in the end no one actually proved anything and thats the whole problem with this system, you can only prove bets that occurred and not future bets that haven't occurred, doesn't matter what anyone says thats the bottom line.

Take care and have fun im just not going to respond anymore, so say what you want I honestly could care less was initially pushing for a better system and im shocked you defend the current system.

Do you really think it would hurt that much to just say "oh, my bad.  Thanks for that explanation" ?  

Who are you trying to fool?

Literally everyone is wrong at some point.  It's not a big deal, doesn't make you an idiot, no reason to feel embarrassed.  Learning is always a good thing.

The way you decided to handle it here, on the other hand, should make you feel like quite a tool.

 

 

[twitchsteveo13]

11 minutes ago, dupeddonk said:

Do you really think it would hurt that much to just say "oh, my bad.  Thanks for that explanation" ?  

Who are you trying to fool?

Literally everyone is wrong at some point.  It's not a big deal, doesn't make you an idiot, no reason to feel embarrassed.  Learning is always a good thing.

The way you decided to handle it here, on the other hand, should make you feel like quite a tool.

 

 

wow you truly are rude, acting like your right and know it all when you still have yet to prove me wrong.

your links and explanations prove nothing for *future bets* and results that could be generated out of thin air there is nothing proving those results, its the one thing you constantly avoid and just assume is in proper order, you just keep avoiding it like the plague.

like i said anything that has not happened yet can not be proved, doesn't matter what it is in this world, for you to think otherwise is literally the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard.

 

[dupeddonk]

19 minutes ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

like i said anything that has not happened yet can not be proved, doesn't matter what it is in this world, for you to think otherwise is literally the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard.

Anything that has not happened yet can not be proved.  Wow.  Ok, deep.

But the nonce based provably fair system does allow us to prove what the outcomes of future and past bets would have been if we had decided not to reveal the server seed, or had we decided to play a different game or option previously. 

That's because the outcomes are determined for every nonce the instant we set our client seed.  

19 minutes ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

you still have yet to prove me wrong.

Dude, you didn't even know it was possible to make your own client seed an hour ago.  You tried to argue that the only way to do it was keep clicking rotate till you "found one you liked".  Now that you know that's not the case, doesn't that change quite a lot for you?

You're making it very difficult not to dunk on you.  But I'm trying.

 

[twitchsteveo13]

43 minutes ago, dupeddonk said:

Anything that has not happened yet can not be proved.  Wow.  Ok, deep.

But the nonce based provably fair system does allow us to prove what the outcomes of future and past bets would have been if we had decided not to reveal the server seed, or had we decided to play a different game or option previously. 

That's because the outcomes are determined for every nonce the instant we set our client seed.  

Dude, you didn't even know it was possible to make your own client seed an hour ago.  You tried to argue that the only way to do it was keep clicking rotate till you "found one you liked".  Now that you know that's not the case, doesn't that change quite a lot for you?

You're making it very difficult not to dunk on you.  But I'm trying.

 

Nah was using it as an example, saying when it gets rotated thats when it goes grey and anything could be generated for future results. obviously i know about making your own client seed the fact you didn't understand what i was saying in the first place and just assume i don't know about making your own client seeds proves how ignorant you really are, and just cause you can make your own client seed that still does not fill that grey area in question, once again your avoiding the entire "Grey Area" like the plague.

You are simply looking for reasons to make yourself seem like you are right when you just ain't, grow up man.

[quntti]

17 hours ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

its not about that, its the fact future bets can be altered as soon as you unhash/change seed and go to verify. if you read some of my last replies you will understand better.

They can't though, if the same seed pair is used.

[AtyLeiva]

Stake originals are just awful.

[twitchsteveo13]

2 minutes ago, quntti said:

They can't though, if the same seed pair is used.

anything that has not happened yet can be fixed and can not be proved to be legit from any source, really think about that for a second.

 

3 minutes ago, AtyLeiva said:

Stake originals are just awful.

Yeah they need a new system in place to rebuild the trust with the players, its gone to far.

[dupeddonk]

8 minutes ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

Nah was using it as an example, saying when it gets rotated thats when it goes grey and anything could be generated for future results.

It's pretty clear you didn't know that you could type whatever you wanted as the client seed.

Why are you doing this?  You know I'm just going to quote you right?

 

16 hours ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

the client seed does not come from the player, you are simply rotating it to find one you want to use, Its not like the player has direct access to that raw data, they give you the 64 code and thats it, only once its rotated for verification does a player gain access.

The client seed does come from the player.  Well, if the player wants proof that the outcome wasn't manipulated, they need to choose their own seed.

Quote

Its not like the player has direct access to that raw data,

That raw data is just a string that you made up.  So, it is like you have direct access to it.  Since you made it up....

 

Quote

they give you the 64 code and thats it, only once its rotated for verification does a player gain access.

You're confusing the client seed server seed and the server seed hash.

The client seed is the one you make up.

The server seed is the secret seed the casino chooses before you make up the client seed.  When you choose a new client seed later on, they will show you the old secret server seed so you can verify.

The server seed hash is the string you need to copy paste before you choose the client seed.

 

[quntti]

2 minutes ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

anything that has not happened yet can be fixed and can not be proved to be legit from any source, really think about that for a second.

It can be proved, because you can run the same hashing functions as are used by Stake on your own PC and compare the results to the results shown by the tool provided by Stake. That's how hashing works.. when you use any number of variables to hash a string (client seed + server seed + nonce in this case) the result will always be the same. It doesn't matter if the server seed has been revealed or not. All the results in original games are already decided at the time of the generation of new seeds. Nothing changes when you reveal the server seed.

[dupeddonk]

5 minutes ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

anything that has not happened yet can be fixed and can not be proved to be legit from any source, really think about that for a second.

It's already happened.  When you chose your client seed, that's when all the outcomes are determined.

really think about that for a second.

 

 

[twitchsteveo13]

1 minute ago, dupeddonk said:

It's pretty clear you didn't know that you could type whatever you wanted as the client seed.

Why are you doing this?  You know I'm just going to quote you right?

 

The client seed does come from the player.  Well, if the player wants proof that the outcome wasn't manipulated, they need to choose their own seed.

That raw data is just a string that you made up.  So, it is like you have direct access to it.  Since you made it up....

 

You're confusing the client seed server seed and the server seed hash.

The client seed is the one you make up.

The server seed is the secret seed the casino chooses before you make up the client seed.  When you choose a new client seed later on, they will show you the old secret server seed so you can verify.

The server seed hash is the string you need to copy paste before you choose the client seed.

 

Lmao once again 100% avoiding that grey area.

Try actually answering it for a change, hmm lets see its because you cant.

1 minute ago, quntti said:

It can be proved, because you can run the same hashing functions as are used by Stake on your own PC and compare the results to the results shown by the tool provided by Stake. That's how hashing works.. when you use any number of variables to hash a string (client seed + server seed + nonce in this case) the result will always be the same. It doesn't matter if the server seed has been revealed or not. All the results in original games are already decided at the time of the generation of new seeds. Nothing changes when you reveal the server seed.

where do you think these results come from? ahh duhh...

[dupeddonk]

Just now, twitchsteveo13 said:

Lmao once again 100% avoiding that grey area.

Try actually answering it for a change, hmm lets see its because you cant.

Are you ok?  You're making less and less sense.

[twitchsteveo13]

1 minute ago, dupeddonk said:

It's already happened.  When you chose your client seed, that's when all the outcomes are determined.

really think about that for a second.

 

 

It actually hasn't physically taken place yet, sure it might get generated but taken place and proven no.

[dupeddonk]

Just now, twitchsteveo13 said:

It actually hasn't physically taken place yet, sure it might get generated but taken place and proven no.

We're just talking about the outcome of each game for each nonce.  Nobody is claiming that they can prove you would lose $5 on nonce 5 by playing dice and betting over 80.

We're saying we know that the roll would have been 44.23 for nonce 5.

(I'm making the numbers up for an example)