Provably Not Fair?

[twitchsteveo13]

3 minutes ago, dupeddonk said:

Are you ok?  You're making less and less sense.

Yeah im just peachy, still waiting for you to actually answer it instead of avoiding it.

[dupeddonk]

2 minutes ago, twitchsteveo13 said:

Yeah im just peachy, still waiting for you to actually answer it instead of avoiding it.

No idea what you think I'm avoiding.  

I've probably adressed it already though.  It seems you don't actually read much of what other people say. Unless they agree with you, then you blindly believe them.

[twitchsteveo13]

Take care im done arguing with you, its like talking to a know it all kid or something.

I see now why you have 1.1k replies you really like arguing instead of directly answering, seems you will do anything to drag it along as long as possible for no reason.

☮️ out

[kayttobr]

10 hours ago, dupeddonk said:

The text you type becomes the client seed, which is required to determine the outcome of the bet.  When you verify the bet, you use the same client seed.  This is the point that you are able to determine whether the text you typed in the box was used (fair) or not (not fair).  

Wrong, the text you type becomes THE NAME OF THE CLIENT SEED, we have no proof what-so-ever that it changes the data within the client-seed, hence why I suggested downloading the seeds with their respective values stored in a file database with encryption (the encryption is there to ensure equal fairness party to Stake and the player, where Stake will be comfortable with the fact the file cannot be tampered with and hacked/cracked to view feature bets, and the player can feel at ease that the client seed given is not altered by Stake and all the values given will match the one of the hash) to actually prevent this gray-area you guys are using.

Whatever text I type into the client seed before changing the seed can be, and 100% is just a variable, a string of text to name my next client seed, it does not determine the outcome of the seed, as it does NOT change the data of the seed IF THE CASINO DOESN'T WANT IT TO.

This remark is the biggest loophole within the system, which allows the casino to have the upper hand to do any shady business without leaving any trace of doing so, because there's no actual proof beforehand to compare.

 

Let's play a game shall we? Guess the 3 first numbers I'm thinking about, from 1 to 100, I thought of a list of a total of 10 numbers.

Now I write those numbers down on a "magic-paper" and turn it face down so none of us can see it, I can peek if I want to, but I'll ensure you that's all I'll do.

Now I'll hand you an empty "magic-paper" and ask you to name it whatever you want, when you're done, place it on top of my face down too.

The beauty of these two magic papers is that they have magic powers! The numbers written can be changed at any given point of time without ruining the paper, also they can make numbers disappear too, just like an eraser, and last but not least, when they're placed on top of each other they will ensure that the numbers gets copied from point magic paper 1 (mine) to magic paper 2 (yours), that way they will look identical and you can verify it later.

Seems familiar doesn't it?

Now, let the guessing begin: Let's say you guessed 3 numbers, 38, 14, and 82.

I take a peek at the paper, because I can.

You then proceed to ask me to reveal the result, I hand you your magic paper that you named (You have had "FULL CONTROL" over it, but it's only been in my safeguard so we're "both" happy), and finally place it face down on top of a table close to you, then I hold mine.

You only guessed 3 numbers, so left 7 were unknown, you pick up your paper and look at your first 3, then look at my first 3, you see that they're identical, now you ask me to reveal the rest, I do, and they're all identical.

You never witnessed the rest of the magic-paper results, I could just make my magic-paper think of a random 7 new numbers and make it so that your magic paper have those 7 unknown numbers too, they were not there before. Not saying I did do it, I didn't cheat you!

But I say I could have done it, but I promise you I didn't!!!! Yep, my promise is authentic, I'm religious I cannot lie.

Then I'll tell you those are the 7 numbers that would've been if you kept guessing. Do you believe me? After all, I let you name your own paper didn't I? And, and, let's not forget, I'm religious! I have a belief and I have people that witnessed my belief and they can vouch for me, they rated me as a good human being!!

Now the game's over, you can't do anything but believe I gave you all the right tools to a fair setting, I hope you're happy with the result.

Let's look into this situation as a whole shall we?

Here's the problem, I took a peek because I wanted to, after you guessed, or before, or whenever I want, what if by any given time, I changed the values in my magic-paper and "refreshed" the copy-paste process from my paper to yours, to make sure they will look identical when you turn them over? You have no proof of it, I leave no trace too as all I'm doing is peeking for all you know.

 

Wake the hell up dude, the whole system is flawed, and don't come here telling me I don't know anything about hash and how they function, what do you know about what I know?

[dupeddonk]

25 minutes ago, kayttobr said:

Wrong, the text you type becomes THE NAME OF THE CLIENT SEED, we have no proof what-so-ever that it changes the data within the client-seed, hence why I suggested downloading the seeds with their respective values stored in a file database with encryption (the encryption is there to ensure equal fairness party to Stake and the player, where Stake will be comfortable with the fact the file cannot be tampered with and hacked/cracked to view feature bets, and the player can feel at ease that the client seed given is not altered by Stake and all the values given will match the one of the hash) to actually prevent this gray-area you guys are using.

Whatever text I type into the client seed before changing the seed can be, and 100% is just a variable, a string of text to name my next client seed, it does not determine the outcome of the seed, as it does NOT change the data of the seed IF THE CASINO DOESN'T WANT IT TO.

This remark is the biggest loophole within the system, which allows the casino to have the upper hand to do any shady business without leaving any trace of doing so, because there's no actual proof beforehand to compare.

 

Let's play a game shall we? Guess the 3 first numbers I'm thinking about, from 1 to 100, I thought of a list of a total of 10 numbers.

Now I write those numbers down on a "magic-paper" and turn it face down so none of us can see it, I can peek if I want to, but I'll ensure you that's all I'll do.

Now I'll hand you an empty "magic-paper" and ask you to name it whatever you want, when you're done, place it on top of my face down too.

The beauty of these two magic papers is that they have magic powers! The numbers written can be changed at any given point of time without ruining the paper, also they can make numbers disappear too, just like an eraser, and last but not least, when they're placed on top of each other they will ensure that the numbers gets copied from point magic paper 1 (mine) to magic paper 2 (yours), that way they will look identical and you can verify it later.

Seems familiar doesn't it?

Now, let the guessing begin: Let's say you guessed 3 numbers, 38, 14, and 82.

I take a peek at the paper, because I can.

You then proceed to ask me to reveal the result, I hand you your magic paper that you named (You have had "FULL CONTROL" over it, but it's only been in my safeguard so we're "both" happy), and finally place it face down on top of a table close to you, then I hold mine.

You only guessed 3 numbers, so left 7 were unknown, you pick up your paper and look at your first 3, then look at my first 3, you see that they're identical, now you ask me to reveal the rest, I do, and they're all identical.

You never witnessed the rest of the magic-paper results, I could just make my magic-paper think of a random 7 new numbers and make it so that your magic paper have those 7 unknown numbers too, they were not there before. Not saying I did do it, I didn't cheat you!

But I say I could have done it, but I promise you I didn't!!!! Yep, my promise is authentic, I'm religious I cannot lie.

Then I'll tell you those are the 7 numbers that would've been if you kept guessing. Do you believe me? After all, I let you name your own paper didn't I? And, and, let's not forget, I'm religious! I have a belief and I have people that witnessed my belief and they can vouch for me, they rated me as a good human being!!

Now the game's over, you can't do anything but believe I gave you all the right tools to a fair setting, I hope you're happy with the result.

Let's look into this situation as a whole shall we?

Here's the problem, I took a peek because I wanted to, after you guessed, or before, or whenever I want, what if by any given time, I changed the values in my magic-paper and "refreshed" the copy-paste process from my paper to yours, to make sure they will look identical when you turn them over? You have no proof of it, I leave no trace too as all I'm doing is peeking for all you know.

 

Wake the hell up dude, the whole system is flawed, and don't come here telling me I don't know anything about hash and how they function, what do you know about what I know?

Once you know the server seed, and you go to verify your bet with that server seed and the client seed that you chose before the bet, that's when you know whether or not your client seed was used. The characters you type into that box make up the entire client seed.

 

Have you read about the hash functions? Are you reading my responses to your posts at all? 

[dollartree1]

Wow.  I can't tell if "the provably fair misinformation club" is really this stubborn to take 5 minutes to try and understand how hashing works, or if just trolling.  Like 4 people have tried to explain this to you but you still won't listen...

Let me give u a simple example.  And then show me where u think the problem lies.   if I use the sha256 hashing algorithm to hash the word "cat" I get "48735c4fae42d1501164976afec76730b9e5fe467f680bdd8daff4bb77674045"  this is your "downloaded file" you want.  From this you can't figure out the initial string is "cat" because it's a 1 way hash. 

The way this is implemented is that stake is giving u 487....045 before u place your bet... you choose the client seed... let's make it dog.  So the results are generated from cat:dog:0, cat:dog:1, etc.  After the bets are made stake says "ok the client seed we used was 'cat'" so now we hash the word cat and see if we end up with 487....045.   If we do we know stake was being fair and actually used the hash they said they were and all outcomes were made from the server seed they told you and nothing was manipulated.  

What you are saying is that there could be another seed that could hash to 487...045 that would play in the casinos favor.  If you beleive that I urge you to try and find any 2 strings that hash to the same output let alone one that the casino will know will scam you and please those results. 

Just curious steveo, can you tell me what the string "casino" will hash to with the sha256 algorithm? Or will you just scream at me and tell me I'm wrong?  

[J-Dawg]

Absolutely everything that dupeddonk (duped means "tricked" donk means "fool"; his user name. and that's what it means, no lies) is not telling the whole truth. 

OP is correct, it's not provably fair, never was, never will be. It's amusing to see this one amateur programmer waste so much time trying to explain why it is, seeing as he has no financial interest to do so. But hey, each to their own.

G'day and bonza to all those downunder.

check out emilbayes/provably-fair-rng on Github

it's a provably fair RNG based on a stream cipher. Why even something like this is not used?

Also, any malicious operator can implement side-channel attacks while still keeping their provably fair charade. The whole thing is really just a joke in 2022 and anyone defending it, is just preying on people who haven't been around the scene long enough or done the research. There are many ways a casino can scam while still hiding behind their provably fair nonsense. 

[Kirito89]

5 hours ago, J-Dawg said:

Absolutely everything that dupeddonk (duped means "tricked" donk means "fool"; his user name. and that's what it means, no lies) is not telling the whole truth. 

OP is correct, it's not provably fair, never was, never will be. It's amusing to see this one amateur programmer waste so much time trying to explain why it is, seeing as he has no financial interest to do so. But hey, each to their own.

G'day and bonza to all those downunder.

check out emilbayes/provably-fair-rng on Github

it's a provably fair RNG based on a stream cipher. Why even something like this is not used?

Also, any malicious operator can implement side-channel attacks while still keeping their provably fair charade. The whole thing is really just a joke in 2022 and anyone defending it, is just preying on people who haven't been around the scene long enough or done the research. There are many ways a casino can scam while still hiding behind their provably fair nonsense. 

Actually it's more amusing seeing you tin foil hat wanabees trying to question math and cryptography , cause your 1 $ bet "should have won in your oppinion".

Provably fairness is pre-determined randomness that can't be altered ,   but don't want to set you down the rabbit hole, so keep sticking to your  "  if I bet 4 times  on 2x , 2 of them must be green"

[dollartree1]

7 hours ago, J-Dawg said:

OP is correct, it's not provably fair, never was, never will be. It's amusing to see this one amateur programmer waste so much time trying to explain why it is, seeing as he has no financial interest to do so. But hey, each to their own.

Maybe you can answer my question then..? Can you tell me the sha256 hash of the string "casino"?     I just want to get a sense of how much research went into these views.   If you would rather not and would prefer to tell me I'm a shill for stake, thats fine too.   I'm really hoping @kayttobr or @twitchsteveo13 would answer this too..   

[J-Dawg]

2 hours ago, Kirito89 said:

Actually it's more amusing seeing you tin foil hat wanabees trying to question math and cryptography , cause your 1 $ bet "should have won in your oppinion".

Provably fairness is pre-determined randomness that can't be altered ,   but don't want to set you down the rabbit hole, so keep sticking to your  "  if I bet 4 times  on 2x , 2 of them must be green"

And your qualifications are what exactly>? What gives you this authority? Want to know the level I'm dealing with before I waste any time baby-splaining it to you

44 minutes ago, dollartree1 said:

Maybe you can answer my question then..? Can you tell me the sha256 hash of the string "casino"?     I just want to get a sense of how much research went into these views.   If you would rather not and would prefer to tell me I'm a shill for stake, thats fine too.   I'm really hoping @kayttobr or @twitchsteveo13 would answer this too..   

There are a million ways that a casino can manipulate the result anyway they like. This thread touches on some of it, and that is only just the start. You can read pages and pages on this on bitcointalk
 

 

[majikoins69]

Probably not fair but still playing huh. LUL

 

 

[xrflive]

33 minutes ago, J-Dawg said:

And your qualifications are what exactly>? What gives you this authority? Want to know the level I'm dealing with before I waste any time baby-splaining it to you

There are a million ways that a casino can manipulate the result anyway they like. This thread touches on some of it, and that is only just the start. You can read pages and pages on this on bitcointalk
 

 

This "method" can't be applied on Stake due client/server seed HMAC SHA256 conversion. Maverick explained it very well. 

Let's stop with this bullshit once and for all. I really don't get what is your point.

If you don't know how the provably fair works here, let me give you a quick example:

Imagine a game where the outcome from 1 to 10 pays you 1$ to 10$.

If the outcome is 1, you get 1$. If the outcome is 2, you get 2$, etc...

Now how you determine the number? With Client and Server seed.
 

For the server seed, imagine that stake pick a random number between 1 and 10 (and you can't see it).
For the client seed, you choose any number you want from 1 to 10.
The final outcome is the sum between those two numbers. If it goes above 10 it start from scratch (example 12  = 2)

Now you can choose every number you want for your client seed and this will impact the final result. Stake can't know in any way what number you are going to choose, and Stake can't change their choice before telling the final result as you have the tools and proofs that your number and the original number chosen by stake have been used.

So if Stake pick 3 and you pick 4, you win 7$. But if you would have picked 8, then your win will be only 2$.

This is how Stake original games works.

 

 

 

[Ygstjak]

Damn yea I feel you, really interesting point you brought up. 

[iulianbutanu]

so better explanations than the first page, you don't unhash the seed, you only have the key for decrypt.

 

basically in any moment in the given  history your bet will be the same and not changed, just stake doesn't give the key until you are able to decrypt the bet to see if the result is the same.

 

the thingy with them letting you chose the client seed is that you can use a random sequence to make a random seed. to unlock the seed you need the key from stake, but stake can't alter it, but can only verify it, the same as you can verify it after you changed it. 

the results in the future can be seen by stake, but they can do nothing to change the result that you are getting (if it was possible, bitcoin will become futile as it is also based on sha256). this is why stake won't give you seed key before you changed it, you can check ur own results.

but actually the system is way better than most other sites that work with probably fair

[Kirito89]

59 minutes ago, J-Dawg said:

And your qualifications are what exactly>? What gives you this authority? Want to know the level I'm dealing with before I waste any time baby-splaining it to you

There are a million ways that a casino can manipulate the result anyway they like. This thread touches on some of it, and that is only just the start. You can read pages and pages on this on bitcointalk
 

 Sure bad  ,the Sha256 hash of the string "casino" is 405e6e0273215dab5aa088d765d9883727f078fbc89dd6fef0723476eb26d3d9

Now what you're implying is that one can hash this string  with Sha256  and get a different result.  Which is actually impossible.

 

[dollartree1]

53 minutes ago, J-Dawg said:

There are a million ways that a casino can manipulate the result anyway they like. This thread touches on some of it, and that is only just the start. You can read pages and pages on this on bitcointalk

So you can't answer my question...  thanks. Just wanted to show everyone (that hasn't already realized the blatently obvious) that you have absolutely no understanding about how hashing works.. let alone the provably fair system.  Since you don't understand it, I highly recommend you do your research before spouting off.  It's fascinating how confidently you make accusations that you believe are 100% factual, and yet so wrong. 

[ktinho]

9 hours ago, dollartree1 said:

Wow.  I can't tell if "the provably fair misinformation club" is really this stubborn to take 5 minutes to try and understand how hashing works, or if just trolling.  Like 4 people have tried to explain this to you but you still won't listen...

Let me give u a simple example.  And then show me where u think the problem lies.   if I use the sha256 hashing algorithm to hash the word "cat" I get "48735c4fae42d1501164976afec76730b9e5fe467f680bdd8daff4bb77674045"  this is your "downloaded file" you want.  From this you can't figure out the initial string is "cat" because it's a 1 way hash. 

The way this is implemented is that stake is giving u 487....045 before u place your bet... you choose the client seed... let's make it dog.  So the results are generated from cat:dog:0, cat:dog:1, etc.  After the bets are made stake says "ok the client seed we used was 'cat'" so now we hash the word cat and see if we end up with 487....045.   If we do we know stake was being fair and actually used the hash they said they were and all outcomes were made from the server seed they told you and nothing was manipulated.  

What you are saying is that there could be another seed that could hash to 487...045 that would play in the casinos favor.  If you beleive that I urge you to try and find any 2 strings that hash to the same output let alone one that the casino will know will scam you and please those results. 

Just curious steveo, can you tell me what the string "casino" will hash to with the sha256 algorithm? Or will you just scream at me and tell me I'm wrong?  

An excellent post! 

 

Some would do well to read this as it explains very well in an easy to understand way.

What people appear to be trying to say is the server seeds are being set to 'on the fly' write mode. Like a dvd-rw or a flash drive.

As if a person chooses their bet variables and THEN  the outcome for those variables is written as they press BET.

IF they would read and take in the information and then go and verify whaat they are being told is correct. we'd see less of these posts/threads.

apologies if anything doesn't make perfect sense. My kids are making a lot of noise.

 

 

4 minutes ago, nemosai03 said:

So rewards are not within 48hrs after the promotion anymore???

Btw already over 48hrs after the promotion ends

wrong thread my friend.

[dollartree1]

1 minute ago, ktinho said:

An excellent post! 

 

Some would do well to read this as it explains very well in an easy to understand way.

What people appear to be trying to say is the server seeds are being set to 'on the fly' write mode. Like a dvd-rw or a flash drive.

As if a person chooses their bet variables and THEN  the outcome for those variables is written as they press BET.

IF they would read and take in the information and then go and verify whaat they are being told is correct. we'd see less of these posts/threads.

apologies if anything doesn't make perfect sense. My kids are making a lot of noise.

Thank you!  I'm glad to see quite a few people with a true understanding of the system here because I'm so sick of seeing all of these misinformation posts that innocent "drive-by victims" of the forum read and then hop on the tin foil hat wagon because all they see are 10 people circle jerking and ganging up on dupeddonk.  

I'm trying to give a very very basic and easy to understand example of the provably fair system.   And it really seems that most who don't understand it, lose their grasp as soon as we get to hashing.  And if you can't understand how one simple word is hashed, and the fact it is a 1 way hash, you don't stand a chance to understand PF.  (Pointing to the guy who wants to download a password encrypted archive of his bets before he makes them).

So until the conspiracy theorists can answer the simple question of what the sha256 of "casino" is, I think we should continue to ask them in every post.  Once they figure it out, we'll give them a hash and ask them to find what word we hashed, when they can't, maybe something will finally click.  

Its also crazy they think stake would R&D things like "side channel attacks" and the other insane tactics that are simply accomplished by adding a house edge which will do the same job without risking all credibility and keeping hundreds of people quiet about their shannigans. (Surely someone would have come forward by now!) 99.9% of the time the most plausible and reasonable explanation is the correct one.  Cue tin foil hatter to comment about the 0.1%...

[byproduct]

2 hours ago, dollartree1 said:

So you can't answer my question...  thanks. Just wanted to show everyone (that hasn't already realized the blatently obvious) that you have absolutely no understanding about how hashing works.. let alone the provably fair system.  Since you don't understand it, I highly recommend you do your research before spouting off.  It's fascinating how confidently you make accusations that you believe are 100% factual, and yet so wrong. 

'Confidently Incorrect' is the term for them, they don't actually want to learn anything.

[dupeddonk]

3 hours ago, J-Dawg said:

And your qualifications are what exactly>? What gives you this authority? Want to know the level I'm dealing with before I waste any time baby-splaining it to you

There are a million ways that a casino can manipulate the result anyway they like. This thread touches on some of it, and that is only just the start. You can read pages and pages on this on bitcointalk
 

 

 

I wonder what played a bigger role in @J-Dawgs decision making when he  created that thread. Lack of integrity out intelligence.

The whole post is from some 6 year old Bitcoin talk thread he found exposing how a casino that hasn't existed in yeara made a poor attempt at their own version of provably fair where the first step was a non transparent shuffle that couldn't be verified or anything.

big brain jdawg plagiarized the entire post and just changed a few lines to make it seem like it was explaining a weakness in every casino that offers any provably fair game today.

Even after being called out, he just keeps acting like this is a totally normal thing for any honest person to do.

So is he gaslighting? Or is he just very, very stupid. 

 

[jungl3]

6 hours ago, dupeddonk said:

So is he gaslighting? Or is he just very, very stupid. 

Is gaslighting just your word of the month or do you get a bonus each time you shoehorn it into a post?

[ktinho]

10 hours ago, jungl3 said:

Is gaslighting just your word of the month or do you get a bonus each time you shoehorn it into a post?

This post helps no one but thanks for not even attempting to make a reasonable contribution.

It was not worth the notification.

Dupeddonk asks a reasonable question with regards to a forum members intentions:-

 

1) Are they just trolling? trying to convince others that what they say is true so they can sit back and  watch other people use this misinformation to make fools of themselves?

2) Unable to take what they believe they know and fact check that against what other people are informing them about - so they can see what they are right about and what they have misunderstood. Are they so unwilling to do this and would rather look stupid?

[Primequin]

Yes it is. But we cant do anything about it, so it means it is what it is. 

[J-Dawg]

In a nutshell, manually changing client seeds and recording server hashes does not necessarily make a gambling site fair. While an individual can take additional steps to decrease the likelihood of being a victim – such as manually changing the client seed – doing so does not increase the provable fairness for other players. Since cheating need not be uniform, an malicious casino may continue to operate in an unfair manner for a subset of all players). This essentially "breaks" the concept of "provably fair," which – to my understanding – is advertised as a system to prevent a house from cheating.

 

[ktinho]

40 minutes ago, J-Dawg said:

In a nutshell, manually changing client seeds and recording server hashes does not necessarily make a gambling site fair. While an individual can take additional steps to decrease the likelihood of being a victim – such as manually changing the client seed – doing so does not increase the provable fairness for other players. Since cheating need not be uniform, an malicious casino may continue to operate in an unfair manner for a subset of all players). This essentially "breaks" the concept of "provably fair," which – to my understanding – is advertised as a system to prevent a house from cheating.

 

What is wrong with you?

Why do you insist on on using outdated information?

Are your understandings and opinions really based on  posts  from 8-9 years ago?